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Head First & Dodgers:
Int: Tell us your overall feelings regarding the music on Head First.
BJ: This album was a whirlwind from start to finish. We weren't given
the normal time to routine songs and arrangements - you know, to think
things through. Fortunately, we had a great relationship with each other
- I felt very comfortable and natural. Things were decided on a very
democratic basis. No-one ruled the roost. It was great for me, of
course, to be treated as an equal in a band of this quality. I feel we
did a good job given the situation. We just needed more time to 'put the
icing on the cake.'
Int: What was your awareness at the time of how conflicted the other
members were feeling in terms of the management?
BJ: Obviously my understanding of the business side at that time was
patchy. I was never given a detailed explanation and besides, our main
focus was on creating music. All I knew following our British tour was
that our management had stressed an urgency to come up with an album.
Tommy and Mike were both very critical of the management's direction and
behaviour, whilst Pete still retained optimism that things would work
out with them. It later became apparent to me that the management's only
concern had been to get further advances as soon as possible, because of
the escalating dispute over the Warners Escrow account.
Int: Did their lyrics strike you in any way at the time?
BJ: Badfinger's lyrics had always been very autobiographical and you
would have had to be blind not to have picked up on the depth of feeling
of 'Rock'n'Roll Contract' or 'Mr Manager.' Pete, of course, could manage
to keep a commercial slant with 'Lay Me Down.' Also, Tom did mention
that 'Keep Believing' was Pete's message to Joey to wish him 'all the
best.'
Int: Did you question the others on them?
BJ: We never asked each other about lyrics. We weren't psychotherapists
- besides, you intuitively knew each other's feelings.
Int: 'Turn Around' is a personal favorite of mine. Describe the
background, development, and recording of that song.
BJ: I mainly tested my songs on Tommy. I was stopping by with him a lot.
Tom liked the rockier side of things and although later he was very
complimentary about my other sides, he went straight for 'Turn Around.'
The whole thing appealed to him, so I went with that. 'Turn Around' came
out of an existing idea. As songwriters would appreciate, you have many
half-formed, incomplete ideas, so I rejigged it, and had the general
arrangement in my head. Apple Studios had this big old Hammond in there
- I went into the back and cranked the pre-amp up and got this real
growl - perfect. We rehearsed it in the studio and it came together
really quickly. Pete had a really deep love of the blues and his solo
was perfect - again only a few takes.
Int: Explain how you came to write parts of 'Passed Fast' and
'Moonshine' and what sections of the song you did come up with?
BJ: 'Passed Fast' was something Tom and I developed together in his
attic-room. I don't remember exactly who did what, but broadly, Tom did
most of the lyrics and I did most of the musical side. We sang harmony
together and the blend was good. 'Moonshine' came from an idea which
Mike brought along - I wrote the bit I sang ('Looking at tomorrow...').
Int: How would it impact you to see the album get a new mix and legit
release?
BJ: It would be great for the public to hear it properly, cleaned up and
re-EQed. I understand that a bootleg version had recently been issued.
I've got mixed feelings about this. I haven't heard it, so I can't
comment on the quality, but it just can't be up to the quality of the
real thing. Also, it wouldn't contain all the bonus tracks. I'm sure
fans will find the official remastered version a whole lot more
satisfying. Of course, it is the final album with the group intact (Joey
had left, of course, but there was nothing we could have done about
that). It was Pete's last band effort and a crucial piece of the jigsaw.
Obviously, it holds particular importance for me. I only hope that the
proper artwork/packaging, distribution and promotion are all put in
place.
Int: Does the photo session for the album still exist?
BJ: There's a story! Too long to tell in all its detail, but.... I came
across a telegram from Tom in some old boxes I was clearing. It
mentioned a time, date and address, and said cryptically: 'Wear dark
clothing.' After some thought, I realised that this referred to the
'Head First' photo session. Of course, the occupants had long since gone
- it was 25 years ago! Anyway, through Town Hall records/photographers
associations, I managed to trace the photographer concerned. Elementary,
my dear Watson!! Unfortunately, he no longer had the negs and said he
must have returned them to Warner Bros. Frustratingly, after many, many
calls, I have still failed to locate the shots. So near and yet so
far....
Int: Describe why knowing Pete Ham has had such a major impact on your
life.
BJ: Well, musically he was excellent, of course. Great technique,
particularly on slide guitar, with a melodic and lyrical approach to
everything he did. Songwise, as good as the other guys were, Pete really
shone - so original. But more than all that, he was so friendly and open
with me. I found him very easy to connect with. He was very sensitive to
all sorts of things - too sensitive perhaps, if that's possible - to the
point where he felt the world had let him down. It is this caring
attitude that I find so endearing. It was both his strength and his
weakness, and I find it a terrible thing that a person as caring as Pete
should have been driven to the point of no return. It still gets to me.
Perhaps it's a bit immodest to say it, but Tommy used to tell me that I
reminded him of Pete a lot, characterwise. Whilst I don't think that
that's entirely accurate, I do consider it to be the greatest compliment
he could have offered me. I had known Pete for a relatively short time,
so I don't think I could ever have predicted how deeply his death would
have affected me. I hope it doesn't sound weak if I admit that hearing
some of Pete's stuff can easily bring on the tears. What a terrible
waste.
Int: Describe the positive qualities and some related anecdotes you have
on Tom Evans.
BJ: We got to be pretty close mates, you know.We'd worked together in so
many different setups; the band (Badfinger) initially, then the Dodgers,
a short session spell in Cheetah, and back to Badfinger.Like Pete, he
took his music very seriously, particularly writing and arranging
songs.He was thoughtful, always striving for the best he could achieve.I
think his standard was improving all the while. He really had
something.One of the things I liked about Tom is that he wasn't shallow.
He was an intelligent guy - he thought about things deeply. Of course,
Tommy had his light and dark sides. He could often be, unintentionally
I'm sure, uncommunicative or cryptic. You weren't always sure what was
going on. Having said that, I found him to be a likable character. I was
never mixed up with the infighting over money, so my relationships with
the guys were untainted by all that stuff. There were always a lot of
things going around in Tom's head. Of course, he used all this as his
stimulus for songs. Art is pain? After rehearsals, business meetings,
etc., we would spend lots of time in the nearest pub and chat to the
local at the bar. One of my interests has always been tricks, lateral
thinking problems, etc. Tom quickly got into it too, and got a lot of
fun out of swapping ideas with the regulars. After a Guinness or five,
Tom would relax and be a great laugh and fun to be with. A favourite of
mine was his 'one-armed press-up,' which he would demonstrate in the
middle of a crowded pub. Me and Tom would say: 'Scuse me, let's have a
bit of room,'. He would do the press-up, and for good measure would pick
a box of matches up from the floor with his teeth. Fantastic!
Int: Describe how you and Tommy came to join the Dodgers?
BJ: Tom rang me directly and said that Tim Boyle knew this guy at Island
Records who was getting a deal; John Wilson. They didn't know what sort
of context to put him in. He was in a band called The Rockets and they
felt that he was good, but the rest of the band weren't really up to
much. So Tom had rang me and we went down together to see what was going
on.
Int: Go on from there, what happened, who did you see?
BJ: We met up with John and the drummer Dave Powell, those were the two
guys remaining. And we did our initial rehearsals in Island's Maida Vale
studio.
Int: So it was you and Tom and those two?
BJ: That's right, we got together, we were introduced. We talked about
stuff and John played some of his songs. We played some of our songs and
just started jamming , and I think by the end of the day we thought,
'Yeah, there might be something in this.'
Int: So you and Tom agreed that you felt it was something interesting
enough that you would pursue it a little further. So how did it go from
there, basically?
BJ: Island were already interested. And when we were put together, I
suppose that just firmed up the package. So we were offered this thing,
'Well, you can work with Muff Winwood,'
Int: Okay, now describe the transition, how much you rehearsed before
you actually went in to start to record with Muff Winwood?
BJ: We basically went into the studio with Muff and we also did one or
two showcase things at Island. And, of course, we started getting our
stage set together as well. I think we were on the road and recording
with Muff at the same time, which only really amounted to the singles
that we did and some jingles.
Int: Was there much pre-production or meeting about what songs he was
gonna record, or did the band pretty much say this what we're gonna do?
BJ: We certainly didn't have any great big meetings before. It was more
or less, 'Let's get in there and just do it.' I think that the people in
charge had already decided that the song 'Don't Let Me Be Wrong' would
be the first single.
Int: How many sessions would you say with Muff ?
BJ: I don't really know.... I would say about five or six sessions
altogether. I can remember going in there with 'Take Another Piece' and
he said, 'Yeah, I really like that, but I don't like that middle-eight.'
We were playing some stuff, you know, individually, and I thought
'That's a bit pompous, he only heard it once. I mean that was a bit of
an instant decision.' I said 'Okay', and I went home and I wrote what I
considered to be a better middle-eight, which is now the existing one.
And he said, 'Yeah, actually that's a lot better.' So I know that we
met, on a number of occasions.
Int: Was Muff was around when you did your thirteen demos?
BJ: No, he wasn't. We went along to that session with Tim Boyle;
certainly Muff had nothing to do with that at all.
Int: There was another single released 'Just Wanna Love You' and 'Don't
Know What You're Doing,' and then there was a single called 'Down'. So
those are all full studio tracks. Now, were they recorded in the midst
of the same sessions and same time, or did you enter months apart?
BJ: Yeah, it was all at different times.
Int: Now, the Dodgers concept was clearly a pop band, highly melodic.
Was there ever an conscious aspect to that, at any point do you remember
'We're gonna be that kind of a band."?
BJ: Yeah, I mean, that was certainly the way John had wanted to go
anyway. And Tom and I agreed, I mean we all wanted success with it. So,
yeah, we were gonna write three-and-a-half-minute songs. We were trying
to get success - there was a conscious effort to be like that.
Int: So when you say success, you're talking in terms of you're trying
to write commercial pop tunes. But you didn't take it to an image
aspect, or to an aspect of glam-rock, or anything in particular. It was
still straightforward?
BJ: Well, I think we'd been influenced ; like Badfinger, it all roots to
the Beatles, doesn't it? We just wanted to be four blokes who played
good songs, you know what I mean? We didn't want to be pretentious about
it, really.
Int: Right, but at that time many bands were successful because they
were pretentious.
BJ: Well, that's true actually. And to that extent, in a sense, we were
going against the grain. Our management were publicity people for all
the early punk acts, and people like Elvis Costello, 'cause that new
wave Brit-thing was happening at that point. But we weren't really par
of that.
Int: You were a little older than those bands, although Elvis Costello
was probably the same age.
BJ: But it was the sort of image he would project. And the Stranglers
were there. Ian Dury was part of it. There was a lot of people, but they
all had various strong personas. And I suppose we didn't - we might have
had strong personalities, but we didn't dress it up.
Int: Well, the image, with the striped shirts, was that just a one-time
photo session, or did you guys push that image?
BJ: The image was nothing to do with us. We were taken to all kinds of
places to try on all sorts of clothes ... for example, the teddy boy
movement in England, high rubber sole shoes, you know that kinda thing.
We went through all these, and most of them I was against. I find all
that kind of dressing up basically pretentious. And I can remember that
the common line that the management used to use with us was 'It's not
what you wear, it's the way you wear it'. And my response was, 'Well,
I'm not comfortable with this. I don't feel natural, it doesn't feel
right to me.' Anyway, the image that was eventually decided on was the
one on the album cover. That was all their idea. The manager flew to
America specifically to buy those jackets (laughs) and those shirts. He
basically had a holiday in America, you know. And he came back with
those, which I'm sure he got from Walmart or wherever it was. We were
just given them. In fact they didn't even fit. I had a bulldog clip in
the back of my jacket, to make it look like it fitted.
Int: Your cuffs were folded up, too, I noticed.
BJ: Yes, in other words, what I'm saying is there's a high-powered
management with these great image ideas and they didn't even get the
right size. It was like 'Well, this is what we've got. Hope this is
alright.' I don't think we even came up with the name.
Int: Well, it's sort of a generic pop band name- not offensive, but a
little bit mediocre. That's my opinion.
BJ: Yeah. I remember one of us speculating at the time, 'Okay, if were
gonna use this name, what we don't want is to have anything to do with
the American baseball team. No matter what, we don't want that.' And
when it came to doing the second album, I remember they said, 'We've got
this great idea for a cover. Now you're gonna be in the stadium... ' and
we're like, 'Wait a minute, we stated this, didn't we?' 'Yeah, but this
will be great lads.' Talk about misdirected.
Int: Now, Tommy seemed quite involved in album titles and image with
Badfinger. Did he seem to get caught up in The Dodgers discussions of
image and name?
BJ: Well, I can't remember him having much involvement with it. I think
that Tom, at that time, was the same as me. You're right about his
input, I think had he stayed, had we continued, I'm sure he would have
got a lot more involved in those artistic decisions. As it went, the
clothes didn't appear until after he'd left.
Int: There is one set of promo photos of you guys with striped, sort o
polo-looking shirts on.
BJ: That's right, rugby shirts. We had a photo session coming up and we
didn't know what to wear, 'What can we wear? Oh well, lets wear some
rugby shirts.' (laughs).
Int: Do you remember doing an Island promo film?
BJ: Yeah, we did.
Int: Describe the whole scenario
BJ: Well, it was for "Love on the Rebound". I remember we spent a full
day on it, and (laughs) I'm ashamed to say that my only recollection of
it is that I was jumping on a trampoline. I don't remember much more
than that.
Int: Do you remember ever being on TV with the Dodgers?
BJ: Tommy's brother recently asked me 'Don't you remember that I came up
to Manchester and we were talking when you were in the TV studio?' I
think it was with David Essex. He was a British pop star. I did remember
it vaguely, but I certainly didn't remember a conversation with him. I
know we did do at least one other TV- that was "The Arrows" show. There
was also Supersonic" and one we did in Holland in a circus setting- a
chimpanzee sat on the piano, facing me.......
Int: Did you go to Europe at all?
BJ: Not for any live work. But there was another group called the Motors
at the time, a British group who had some success. They had a record
called 'Airport', and we were more or less their backing band. I played
all that keyboard stuff for them, 'cause it was only a three-piece, and
they needed augmenting. So all of us flew over to Germany on this little
plane, and backed them for an open air gig.
Int: Describe the Dodgers touring.
BJ: We were doing a number of gigs, and we toured with a guy called
Steve Gibbons. He was headlining... We also did a tour with a band
called "Renaissance".
Int: Describe what you remember about Tom and his attitude throughout
those tours. His moods and things that were happening with him.
BJ: I think we all got on fine. I suppose it did really fall into two
camps; me and Tommy used to hang around together, obviously because of
the Badfinger thing. If we ever worked down south, I would stop at his
place and Paul Hooper, who was involved by this time, would stop at
John's
place.
Int: Do you remember the BBC appearance?
BJ: Yeah, we did a BBC radio show.
Int: Have you heard that tape?
BJ: I haven't heard it recently. I think that was when we got Terry
Williams in from Dire Straits.
Int: I noticed that you were using a Fender Rhodes. That is interesting
because it's not like having an organ pad sound. So it was a little bit
light on that end. Did you use that Rhodes pretty exclusively live? Did
you play any guitar or bring any other keyboards?
BJ: I remember I used the Fender Rhodes for quite a long time. But later
I changed over to an electric Grand, a Yamaha CP70B.
Int: I noticed on 'Get To You' you used a piano.
BJ: Of course I would always prefer to go towards the actual acoustic
piano, if it was possible. But live, the show was a mixture of me
playing, a bit like the Badfinger thing, fifty percent guitar.
Int: So you did switch over to guitar at times with the Dodgers. But
John Wilson did all the lead work. How did Tommy and you kind of rate
John's lead guitar.
BJ: John was talented, and a great self publicist, who could schmooze
people really well. And he was a good songwriter and singer. He did the
job on lead, but he really found his feet when he switched over to bass.
Int: Now, as far as the songwriting aspect, describe how you might come
to pick what songs to work on for a potential recording.
BJ: Okay, well, in the early stages of the band, John would often bring
a song along and just say; 'Look, you're gonna love this, ' And then
he'd proceed to sing it, 'Yeah, come on, let's do it; you play this bit
and these are the chords...', and before you knew it, you had done it.
Int: But you and Tom, the things that you would introduce, were they
generally also getting played when you actually got around to
introducing them?
BJ: Yeah, to be fair to John, he was willing to listen. Part of his
thing is that he will try and make you feel good about yourself - he
will say; 'That's great, I really like what you do, that's really good.'
So he was willing to listen to our ideas, but, on balance, we still did
more of John's songs.
Int: For example 'Take Another Piece', did he ever, did he seem to
believe in that song or comment on it?
BJ: Yeah, he was reasonably complimentary about all my stuff.
Int: Did you guys do any covers when you played live?
BJ: We did the odd one or two. Rockers like "It'll Be Me."
Int: Now, I noticed Tommy's stuff was, of the time, pretty upbeat, poppy
and more optimistic in sound, any thoughts on that?
BJ: Well, I think stylistically he was probably trying to compete with
John on his own level, if you know what I mean.... trying to turn
something in that was quite 'perky' and up. Although we were gonna do
ballads and stuff, what we weren't gonna do was any long drawn out jams
a la the Badfinger days like 'Feeling Alright'. You know, we weren't
gonna do any of that self-indulgent kind of thing.
Int: Right. You think Tom was trying to be a commercial upbeat
tunesmith, sort of a conscious thing going on.
BJ: Yeah, there's inspiration and there's crafting a song. Tommy could
do both.
Int: That may have been part of it. During this period of the Dodgers it
still was close to Pete's death. Was Tommy showing or discussing the
Pete aspects of his life, or did you get the feeling it was something
that he had pushed deep down inside?
BJ: Yeah, I think he did push it down a bit. I mean, we talked about it
at various times, obviously. You know, when we had come back after a
session, or whatever, we'd go back to his house and inevitably we'd go
round to The White Hart, round the corner, and have a beer. And of
course things would come up, but at that point we didn't really talk
very deeply about it. I think we were quite up about this Dodgers thing
and hoping that something would happen. So I think our focus was on
having a laugh and trying to do something fresh.
Int: Do you think some of the grief for Pete hadn't yet fully resolved
itself - And some of that came out later for both of you?
BJ: Yes. I would say that's true. Work is a great healer, if you know
what I mean. While you're busy your mind is occupied, you don't have
time to really dwell or think. It's only when things slow down a bit
that you begin to get reflective and think of the way things might have
been.
Int: Was Tommy, during The Dodgers period, discussing Bill Collins, Stan
Polley, and settling up the Badfinger money?
BJ: Well, the thing is, the mention of this situation, would come up at
various times. Tom wasn't the most straightforward person about speaking
about things, as you're probably aware. So he'd often, over a pint, say
things in a cryptic fashion, quietly, and you'd go. 'What? What?' and
then he'd say; 'Well, Bill's trying to do this, really,' or 'I don't
know. You can't trust anyone.' So things were mentioned, but again, I
can't honestly think of specific details.
Int: You didn't probe him for the details?
BJ: No, it wasn't in my nature then... actually, it's funny, now my
personality is that I would probably be more probing and ask more. Then,
I would kind of listen and think, 'Well, if he doesn't want to talk
about it, I won't push him.' Little bits would come out, and then he'd
go quiet again and have another four sips.
Int: Describe Tommy's being let go, what led up to it, and also if you
thought that Tommy saw this coming in any way at all.
BJ: No, I think it was a complete shock to him. I mean the truth of the
matter is, I didn't see it coming. My first recollection is at the
management office on Oxford Street. I think as we were going up the
stairs John said to me something about,' Tom's gotta go'. I was, 'What
are you talking about?'. So then we walk in the door and the managers
are there.
Int: You didn't know that Tommy hadn't been called?
BJ: No. He just wasn't called. And it wasn't really discussed. It was,
'We don't feel that Tom is right for the group.'
Int: What reasons did they give?
BJ: I can't remember anything that he did that was extreme. But
nevertheless, they came up with this scenario; 'You will have to get rid
of him!' And I said, 'Well, what do you mean...?' I was a bit
shell-shocked, 'Well, how are we gonna do that?' So the next time we met
up with to Tommy was at a rehearsal at a pub in Islington in London. And
right after that rehearsal we all sat down at the table and had a drink.
I'd already explained to the others, 'Look, I can't say anything about
this', because I was personally torn, more than the others were.
Obviously, I'd been involved with Tommy in the past, the bigger, deeper
friendship and I didn't agree with it, but on the other hand, what was
being put to me by everyone else was 'Look Bob, you've gotta think of
the band, we've got an album deal sorted out.' You know, everything was
on a roll.
Int: You had already started to record the basic tracks for the record?
BJ: Yes. We'd already started to record at Rockfield and John said,
'They're gonna do all sorts of promotion and maybe Tommy is a bit over
the top; you know what he's like.' And I was saying; 'Well, yeah, John,
but....' So anyway, I just didn't know where to put myself. During this
short period I was thinking; 'What am I gonna do?'
Int: Didn't you want to stand up at the meeting and say, 'Wait! I want
you to give this guy a warning.'
BJ: Yeah! Of course. Of course!
Int: Tell me what you said.
BJ: Well, I said, 'What is it about him that is that bad, because he's a
very talented guy. He's a good guy,' and all the rest. And they said;
'No. He has to go.' I remember saying, ' Can't we give him a warning?
Can't we ...' But it was like; 'We're the management. We have decided,
this is what's gonna happen. 'Looking back, I should have said, 'Well,
bollocks to you. I'm gonna go, Tom is my mate.' That's really what I
should have done. But I must admit I didn't. John was sort of, 'Well,
well... we've got to think of the bigger picture. 'Paul's view was "We
have to prove that we will do whatever it takes." I was very torn about
that. I felt terrible about it. I agonised about it for months and years
to come, until Tom contacted me again. So anyway, on the day, I couldn't
say anything. I just looked down. Very weak of me, really. But I just
turned away and Paul basically said, 'Sorry Tom, you're out.'' Why?'.
'Well the management says..' And Tom said; 'Well, well...'
Int: Did Paul say that it was because the management says you drink too
much?'
BJ: Yeah. That was mentioned. And Tom basically said; 'Okay. Fair
enough, I hear what you're saying. Well look, can't you give me a
chance?' Paul was very unemotional about it, because he was detached
from any real long relationship and he just said; 'Sorry Tom. That's the
way they've told us. That's it, mate.' Tommy just looked so ill, you
know he looked awful. He just stood up and said; 'Right, I suppose
that's it then' And walked out. Oh my God. I know how it must have hurt
him. Can you imagine? I felt awful.
Int: Did either of you contact each other after that?
BJ: No. It was that bad. He couldn't. He didn't ring me. Out of anger or
whatever. And I didn't ring him, because I was so ashamed that I'd been
complicit with it. Not that I agreed with it, you know. I stood up for
him, but I went along with it, didn't I? And I felt terrible about that.
Int: He must have been devastated.
BJ: I really felt for him. It must have hurt his pride so much...
Int: It seemed so illogical. You shouldn't fire people when you're
working on an album. You've already worked up the songs, the material.
You gotta get back in the studio. It's unbelievable.
BJ: I don't know which of his bits they used and which they didn't. But
certainly some of his stuff was wiped out. When you say it's illogical,
they did that later, when we were doing the second album. They started
wiping all my stuff off. They do it to one, they do it to another.
Int: Now, into the management.
BJ: Well, there were three guys in the team. At one stage we had
meetings with the Who's manager, who was interested in co-managing us.
There would have been four of them!!
Int: I guess to this day you don't really have a clear picture of what
Tommy did to irk them so much, do you?
BJ: No, to be truthful. However, I was talking with Paul just the other
day and he shed some new light on it all. After we left Island, there
was a lull in the work, so Paul, John and I got a 'scratch' band
together doing Beatles' stuff ,just for fun - (this was way before
tribute bands were around). John had met Rog (Lomas), had got on very
well with him, and asked him to be involved in it. Tommy lived the other
side of London so we began playing with Rog in the 'Beagles' - (it was
meant to be jokey). Rog played guitar, so John switched over to bass.
Although I didn't realise it then, John's enthusiasm for all this was
probably a factor in influencing the management's point of view.
Int: Do you remember any shows where he showed up late or really screwed
up big time?
BJ: Not big time; I mean there were shows where he was a bit 'squiffy'.
Int: You mean in performance or being obnoxious?
BJ: Yeah, in performance. But I'll put it like this, what is noticeable
to guys onstage wouldn't have been noticeable to people in the audience.
He always did his job. We're probably all guilty of having one drink too
many on occasion.
Int: Do you think it's possible that he got in their face about some
opinions, that they didn't really want that?
BJ: I don't think so. I can't remember any arguments between him and
them.
Int: Describe the recording atmosphere with producer Pat Moran and the
ultimate results of the album and thoughts on how the band felt about
it.
BJ: Well, just to backtrack just one step. The reason we got Pat Moran
was that we were directed into that by the management who said, 'We've
got the perfect guy to do this album for you. Let me tell you a little
bit about him...' And straight away I said: 'I know him' and Paul Hooper
said 'I think I do as well', In fact I'd played in a band context with
him once, although briefly. So, anyway, what it really amounted to was
they got Pat on a very cheap deal; it was all about money.
Int: You were feeling his musical taste wasn't gonna match?
BJ: Yeah, we knew what his productions were like; specifically his
productions at Rockfield. Because we'd heard the stuff, and we knew that
he was very much a kind of technician, we knew, straight away that the
live sound, that crunchy sound wouldn't translate. Everything was kinda
of clean and clinical.
Int: You say you fought against having him hired on; explain that again.
BJ: Paul and I said that we knew about him and he was a lovely bloke ,
but we didn't feel he was right for this project. But again it was a bit
like the clothes or Tommy's departure; 'Well this is what's gonna
happen.'
Int: Discuss how 'Don't Let Me Be Wrong' completely changed its
arrangement. It was much lighter than the single. It had background
parts, Beach Boyish background parts...
BJ: I think that album really reflects Pat's sort of tastes. That's what
it amounts to. It didn't reflect the reality the group was about.
Int: Pat picked a lot of the material?
BJ: Well, he picked all of the material. He picked the kind of sound
that would be used, for the most part. He'd use the old line 'Don't
worry, when it comes to the mix, it'll be alright.'
Int: But as you were hearing the mixes and they were done, do you
remember any sense of dissatisfaction or were you kind of oblivious.
Were you just really grasping at what was really going on?
BJ: Sometimes, it's hard to know whether to trust your own judgment or
not. One of the things that Pat used to do was to monitor the stuff
really loud, so you get this feeling it's powerful. You come out
wondering, 'Well, is it or isn't it?' It sounds meaty, but of course,
later on you get a cassette and it sounds weedy, it sounds too clinical.
Int: How about John Wilson, he seemed to be okay about the production?
BJ: I would say he was much the same as me about it. He didn't really
feel that it reflected the band's sound or what we were trying to
achieve, but he was like; 'Well, these guys must know best, you know.'
Int: When it was all said and done, and there was some reflection, and
you got back your albums, do you remember going, 'Oh, this isn't that
good.' Or do you remember trying to be optimistic, 'Well, you never
know.'?
BJ: Well. I think we were just trying to be optimistic. I think John
said; 'Well, it's not so bad, actually.' And I was a bit more, 'Well.
I'm not sure, this doesn't sound right to me.' In fact, you know it's
not right, really. But you kind of..
Int: You try to feel enthusiastic?
BJ: Yeah, you've just done something important. You've been through this
whole process. All these problems; kicking your mate out, going through
all this pain. You're thinking, well, you wanna think it's going to be
good, of course you do.
Int: Now the fact 'Love In The Rebound' is a little bit different; a
kind of a Foreigner sound; how did that enter the mix of everything
after your being so poppy for so long?
BJ: You mean it's a different style of song?
Int: Yeah. It's the first song on the album and everything.
BJ: That's right. John's influence. Our original idea with that group
was British pop, It was just that John started bringing along some of
those types of tracks, saying, 'Well, this will be good live!'
Int: Well, Pat Moran did pick them.
BJ: Yes, because he had that kind of taste, too. This led to this
ongoing thing from then on, because the managers started saying; 'Well,
we want it to become heavier'.
Int: They started to want you to develop that.
BJ: Yeah, I mean that's the beginning of the whole scenario about me
being pushed out. Because I was fighting it.
Int: Now once the album came out, do you remember doing any promo or TV
for the album once it was done? Film, TV or live?
BJ: We did this show called Supersonic, which was in a theatre with a
live audience.
Int: 'Love On The Rebound' came out as a single. Do you remember any
buzz off of it?
BJ: I'm not sure it had any tremendous reaction actually.
Int: Describe how you came to do the second album with Pat Moran and how
you ended up leaving. Did you have a contract ?
BJ: We went through the same scenario, really.
Int: Now why was Pat Moran hired after such a disastrous first album?
B.J. Well, don't ask me. I've no idea. I don't know whether they had a
deal with him where he had to be kept on for the next album.
Int: Did you fight him being used?
BJ: Yes. We said that it would have to be different this time - he had
to beef it up.
Int: Do you think your enthusiasm was wearing down?
BJ: Yeah it was.
Int: Was it just because not much was happening?
BJ: Yeah; although we were touring and gigging. I think we were
confident in ourselves, in the sense that we felt we were capable of
writing good songs. So the future was there in that sense. There was a
lot of potential there.
Int: Do you remember what material of yours was popping up at this point
for this second album?
BJ: 'Crazy' I think was one. 'When I Look in Your Eyes'. 'I Can't Live
Without Your Love' was one. I remember at one point Pat Moran said 'Oh,
this could be a great single, if only we do this and this to it'.
Int: How far into the album did you get? Explain how you ended up
leaving before it was finished.
BJ: We're at Rockfield a week and a half, or two, or whatever it was
And we did a number of tracks.
Int: Basics or finished?
BJ We would do basic backings and I think most of the vocals were done,
towards the end. But what happened was the manager heard these rough
mixes, they said 'We think the group is too poppy and we like it when
you do that 'Love On The Rebound' kind of stuff.' Now I said 'If you
want Foreigner, go and get Foreigner.If you don't like the material,
back off. This was the first time that I called an ultimatum. I think
John was happy to go along with it, because let's face it, they were his
songs. We had a meeting at one point where they were arguing against
certain tracks of mine,and I had a word with the lads, and said, 'You're
either gonna back me up over this or not. I'm bringing along songs , if
you don't like them , we can just throw them out, I'll write something
else, but I don't want the management telling me that they don't like
something and therefore we're not doing it, you know, I don't think we
can be having that.' And we had a meeting. We told them straight. And
they kind of went; 'Well, we're only advising you.' So it appeared to
end amicably, but what I didn't realize was that behind the scenes they
were turning John and Roger to their point of view. One of the managers
insisted that he wanted to come down and do the mixes. Can you believe
this? This is a manager! He not a producer.
Int: Now he's doing final mixes?
BJ: Yeah, we were nearing completion with some of them. But he insisted
he was gonna come down with Pat, and he didn't want us there. He did
these mixes, and they did end up very pared down. But I noticed when
listening to some of these mixes that some of the parts on them weren't
mine, and other parts that I had played just weren't there at all. In
other words, certain guitar-parts and little bits of vocal had been
replaced. When I mentioned this to John I said; 'I'm sick of it, it's
getting me down. I've been listening to these tracks and they sound
funny, ' It's almost like these are not my parts,'. He looked very
sheepish and he did the typical: 'Come over here, let's have a drink -
we need to have a talk,'. He opened up and said; 'Look, I feel terrible,
I've been keeping something from you.' Basically the whole thing I've
told you about Tom was now happening to me.
Int: But why would they wanna get rid of you? What were you doing that
they wanted you out of the group?
BJ: They wanted me out of the group because I had become increasingly
more vocal about the change of direction.
Int: So instead of just coming out and firing you, they went to a studio
and used other musicians behind your back...
BJ: It was because we were so far through the project, I think. If it
had been before the album had been started, they would probably have
just tried to kick me out or whatever. The other factor in all this is
that they made me sign away my future publishing with them, even though
I was still under contract to Island. I mean, some of the songs, for
instance 'Come Out Fighting' which is credited to Paul Hooper, that's my
music, Paul wrote the lyric.
Int: There are other songs too?
BJ: I can remember another very obvious example, the shortened version
of 'Take Another Piece', I mean it's hacked around to death. But there's
a little guitar motif thing on the end...
Int: Yes, its 'Das Ende.'
BJ: Yes, it's credited to Roger Lomas. Well, there's a guitar-line over
my stuff, but I wasn't even given a co-write on it.
Int: You wrote all the music and then somebody else played a guitar over
it, and it was actually your music.
B.J. Exactly.
Int: But why were Roger and Paul allowed to have their names
credited...?
BJ: Basically there was a shady situation created involving my
publishing - I don't want to say more than that...
Int: What happened right after John's meeting with you? What did you do
next? Did you confront the management?
BJ: No, the first person I confronted was Roger Lomas. I remember fuming
inside about everything. And not really knowing what to say. It just
came out;' Rog, what the fuck are you doing? You overdubbed those parts,
didn't you?' And he looked dumbstruck, as he didn't know I knew; 'Well,
they asked me to Bob. What could I do?' And I said: 'You could have told
me, that's what you could have done'. Rotten.
Int: They slipped out to the studio without you and did this.
BJ: Yeah.
Int: So okay, so from there, what did you do, did you finally confront
the management?
BJ: Yeah, what I realized was that there was this publishing deal that
they had made me sign before the first album. They'd said; 'Sign songs
to us now, later on we'll give you a publishing deal'. I said 'I don't
know whether I want to do this. Why should I sign this away now?' Of
course their arguments, which are the typical management arguments were:
'Well, we're a team now. We're all helping each other aren't we?' So
anyway, against my better judgment, I signed the deal. When I realized
they were trying to get rid of me, there was only a few months until
their contract started. I didn't particularly want to be signed to them.
But at the same time, that promise of that advance money was really all
I had to look forward to. So I didn't confront them immediately. I felt
that if I met up with them too early, they would probably say: 'Bob, we
don't want your 'publishing' anymore. And we're canceling it.' So after
the time went by, I fixed up a meeting with them. Paul Hooper came as
well, and we took a tape recorder and we put it in a bag. I rang up
ahead and said 'I wanna come down and talk about the situation.'. And
then we confronted them with it all.
Int: You mean Paul was in the same boat as you, as far as you can tell?
BJ: Well yeah, because they wanted him out as well, because he agreed
with what I'd said about everything. And at the same time, John was into
them for a lot of money. He'd been borrowing and they advanced Rog Lomas
a lot of money, so they wanted to keep them.
Int: This is outrageous.
BJ: I know, it's unbelievable.
Int: So at the end of the meeting, what did they say?
BJ: Well, the management was saying; 'That's it. We don't want the group
any more, but we are offering Rog and John something.' We basically
said; 'Well, it's plain the way you feel, and under the circumstances,
we wouldn't wanna carry on anyway.' I then called a band meeting at my
house, and we thrashed it out. I remember John saying something like:
'All right then, if you and me stick together, we'll carry on and I'll
get rid of the management.' He was basically saying 'Not you, Paul'. I
just said; 'John, I can't do that. Paul's been fighting this thing with
me. I just couldn't do that.' So that was it. That was the finish, in
that room. The post-script to all this is that years later and despite a
dodgy lawyer, I eventually did win all the money I was owed. Don't you
just love a happy ending!
End Of Part 1
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